GB Naval cachets WWI

[Tony Walker]

I think I might regret this.

I was writing up a cover which appeared to show a naval cachet not listed in Michael Gould's handbook.  It seems to be a double rim OVAL cachet from Vendome, listed by Michael on page 201 but as SC - single circle, not SO, single oval.  I've dropped him an email to check his was not a typing error for SO.

Then I had a thought.  Would there be any interest in having illustrations of these cachets?  Michael lists 100+, so it's not a quick fix, and there are probably more around, though I'm not sure if they generate much interest.  They do add useful information to a cover as to origin, or place of receipt etc.

The list could be on the same basis as Michael Gould's list, or different?  I'm having to get up very early these days to watch the rugby, so am not volunteering for the time being, but thought I'd raise the matter - test the water so to speak.  Of course there may be a member of the FPHS just itching to get stuck into such a project, always assuming it hasn't been done elsewhere?

England v Tonga tomorrow at the civilised hour of 11.45am, but then they go and put Ireland v Scotland on at 8.45am beforehand, on a Sunday morning too.

Cheers
Tony

[Alan Baker]

I'm sure there would, but I'm tied up with Army censors at the moment. I wondered if you were considering volunteering after the rugby is over...

[Chris Grimshaw]

Hi Tony

Sounds an interesting and worthwhile project,  bringing all together with illustrations would create a permanent record. Quite often these cachets are overlooked.

Have though the same about the WW1 Army Unit cachets, in theory every unit had such a cachet,  Firebrace recorded some for Egypt and Salonika is reasonably well represented,  It would certainly be a worthwhile project if there is appetite for the recording of and illustrating.

Would be  happy to publish something in the journal to stimulate interest and feedback.

Chris

[Tony Walker]

Hi Alan and Chris

Thanks for comments.  I think I'll wait a while to see if there are any more positive replies

Cheers
Tony

[Nick Colley]

I'm happy to contribute, of course, Tony, but off hand, I don't know precisely what I have in this respect (ie an implicit caution that I may not have any unrecorded cachets).

chrs
N

[Chris Weddell]

Hello Tony,

              Sorry i have not replied earlier. I have one unrecorded cachet. A pictorial record of the cachets sounds great.

I would be happy to help.

                                                                    Cheers

                                                                    Chris

[Chris Weddell]

Tony,

      Make that 4 unrecorded cachets !! I do have a number of recorded cachets as well. I also note on one unrecorded cachet various different uses of coloured inks at different dates !!! I think it would be a good idea to keep early and late date usage.

                                                  Chris.

[Tony Walker]

As you might expect, I have not been inundated by offers to collect/collate cachets from the British Navy in WWI mail, but it's not too late to apply......

Perhaps we might agree a definition of a naval cachet?  Rather than attempt that myself, I bow to the greater knowledge of fellow members to agree this.  Michael Gould, Frank Schofield, Michael Dobbs, Nick Colley, Colin Tabeart et al spring to mind.

Watch this space folks

Tony

[Michael Dobbs]

I see none of our naval specialists have responded as yet!  Lets see what I can say on the matter - WW1 naval matters are outside of my scope in both knowledge and collecting.  However, I can relate this to post-WW2 Army unit cachets and datestamps.  It can be an almost impossible task to fulfil - where do you start and where do you finish?

Do you just concentrate on cachets or also include datestamps - by this I mean unit datestamps which include the name of the unit and possibly another function as well (e.g. Post Room, Orderly Room, OC, CO, Battery, Company, Squadron, etc).  These can get replaced on a regular basis and may be procured locally or through a central system, but as far as I am aware there are no 'rules and regulations' for such datestamps.

The same could be said for naval vessels - there may be cachets or datestamps for various functions on a ship (depending on size).  Each one is likely to be unique and I feel you would have to illustrate each one and not merely list them as Gould has done.  To my mind this can only cause confusion. 

Larger vessels, in my mind, would have more cachets and datestamps than smaller vessels.  Their use is not primarily postal - they are for official documents, of which using to confirm official mail status (or in some cases free postage) is but one example.

I don't think I would like to undertake such a task for the British Army as a whole, in the same manner as you are considering for the Royal Navy - I may well say yes to such a task for British Army postal units and post offices as that is limited in scope.

By all means have several pages of illustrated examples, but I feel you are on a hiding to nothing if you try and 'capture' all such markings!

Well that is my ramblings on the subject - what do others think?!

Mike

[Tony Walker]

Mike, many thanks for your insightful (No, I don't like that word either) post.  But things are not so bleak as you think.  Chris Weddell replied to my initial post below and has volunteered to collect/collate the WWI naval cachets.

Chris has other duties to handle (membership secretary for one), so we are still looking for some help. Nevertheless Chris and I have exchanged some preliminary thoughts, which I'm happy to share with Forum members in the attachments to this post.  Only a small proportion of FPHS members post on the Forum, and in due course I think a piece in the Newsletter would be advantageous, if Chris Grimshaw could fit us in...

I would think there are many more 'cachet' marks in the Army than the Navy, but from what you say Mike, this would still be a daunting task.  I'm deflated enough right now, having just watched England comprehensively beaten in the Rugby World Cup, so I'll finish here and sort out the attachments.  The red text is merely my comments on individual cachets - for promoting discussion

Cheers
Tony

[Tony Walker]

Ooops!  It seems only the second page of the scanned cachets has been attached, hopefully page 1 is attached here

Tony

[Peter Harvey]

Hi Tony,

Some interesting thoughts on this. I would be able to help a little with some admin, so maybe something to discuss with Chris, that would depend on how things proceed and formats.

There is the 'Draft Publications' section to the discussion forum, which might be a good repository for any documents, especially if this allowed people to just post pictures and details of covers, before they were added to a master list (admin task). I also think this would work better as a spreadsheet, as the fields will likely increase as the list of new items increases, this will also mean it would be easy to search, if this becomes a huge document.

I think you are saying 'naval or ship cachets' but th spread sheet approach does allow you to have different tabs, pre-WW1, WW1, WW2 and Post WW2..... some of these areas have little research, so most of the admin might likely be in the first few months, then it will slow done.

We would have to check if this will work with the Webmaster (he that rules the online FPHS world)...... well this are my thoughts.

Peter

[Tony Walker]

Peter

That was a very helpful post, both in respect of the Draft Publications and your offer to help.

There is no rush on this, so an exchange of ideas and views at this stage is likely to benefit the final format of the cachet information.  I'm not sure if Chris Weddell's email/internet is back up and working, no doubt we'll hear from him if/when it is.

I'll look at the Draft Publications section on the Forum.  Certainly it would be an ideal situation if people could post a better illustration of a cachet for instance, than appears in the list, and this can easily be substituted, as could additional information.  Spreadsheet sounds good, but my computer expertise is rather limited.

Thanks again
Tony

[Tony Walker]

Just to update you on this topic.

Chris Weddell and I are presently scanning our own WWI naval cachets with a view to trying to work out how best to list them in a manner that will easily accept additions and/or revisions.  Also how much information about any particular cachet should be recorded.  Chris is going to have first go at this.

Precisely what is the definition of a cachet ?

This will take a while to sort, and like Peter Harvey and Nick Colley, we will be grateful for any suggestions etc. that members may provide.  In due course we will ask for scans, but to avoid unnecessary duplication, we hope to be able to somehow list those already to hand prior to opening it up.

Cheers

Tony Walker and Chris Weddell

[Tony Walker]

Just an opportunity for anyone to offer an opinion on whether the On Active Service mark on the attached cover should be classed as a cachet?  It is obviously not part of the censor mark.

Incidentally any offers as to which ship the censor mark came from?  It measures 57.5 x 4, D-C 3.5 and P - C 30 in case the photocopy distorts.  I have a view, but will not influence any other opinions

Cheers
Tony