A question about the Northern Patrol, WW1

[Nick Colley]

Folks, I have a question arising from Saturday's Zoom meeting. It comes from a guest, so I'm presenting this for him:

'Northern Patrol in WW1 was basically a blockade of the North Sea by the 10th Cruiser Squadron based out of Scapa Flow in the Orkneys. Alan Baker has confirmed that some of the ships had their own censor markings (Gould). Two Northern Patrol censor markings have been observed – both double ring, text in ring CENSORED / NORTHERN PATROL separated by ornaments, blank center. The earlier (24 mm dia.) was addressed to Aberdeen and has a London machine cancel dated Dec 9, 1915. The latter (32 mm dia.) was addressed to Surrey and has a FPO a (Fleet Mail Office) machine cancel dated May 25, 1917. Numerous questions need to be answered including: was ship size the determining factor in which ones did their own censoring, was mail from smaller ships collected and sent to London for censoring, were two censoring groups using different hammers or did the original one just wear out?'

Scan attached, by the way.

Obviously, I'll pass back to him any thoughts and/or comments you have.

Thanks a lot!

rgds
Nick

[Alan Baker]

It may be that the other ships also had their own censor stamp but have not yet been identified

[Tony Walker]

I think a number of ships had their own censor marks, and the covers I have of Gould 2A16 and 2A17 have been cancelled either at Inverness, Imperieuse or London.  I'm sure there will be a list of Northern Patrol ships available and it can be compared with Michael Gould's censor listings.  I will have a look , but a bit overcommitted just now.

I do have an interesting cover which has been opened by the censor (CENSORED BY / CENSOR, / 1891) label used.  It has a Swedish stamp on it and is addressed to Chicago, Illinois.  Swedish machine cancel dated 10.4.16.  A pencil note on the cover (possibly a youthful Frank?) says 'Mail intercepted by Northern Patrol, Censored at Kirkwall? ' 
Is it possible to determine this from the censor label?

I was in contact with a fellow FPHS member about Northern Patrol before I moved house and upgraded to Windows 10, and lost virtually all my earlier emails, including that contact.  My apologies to that member, I can only use age as an excuse, but perhaps you'll read this email and be able to add to the messages.

Good health to all
Tony

[Alan Baker]

There is a comprehensive listing of the ships on the website of the Dreadnought Project, with links to extracts from the ships'logs

[Nick Colley]

Alan, I can't see/find such a listing in the Dreadnought Project  :( Would you mind sending me the url for that page, plse?

TVM
N

[Alan Baker]

Try this. You will find a list of dates, but if you click on the link it takes you to the ships forming part of the squadron that month. Then click on the ship's name and you move through to brief info about her. Most then have a link to transcribed ships' logs....

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/tfs/index.php/Tenth_Cruiser_Squadron_(Royal_Navy)

[Nick Colley]

Ah, yes, why didn't I think of searching for 10th Cruiser Squadron? I entered Northern Patrol, which was unhelpful.

Many thanks, Hon Treas.

chrs
N

[Chris Grimshaw]

Afternoon Team

This seems to be drifting / sailing away from the original query. As I understand from the zoom meeting, where there two different Hand-stamps in use or is it as I'd suggested the original Hand-stamp was replaced at some time with a larger example.

If friends have examples can we tie down when a changeover / replacement took place or indeed show the Hand-stamps were in use concurrently.

Chris

[Tony Walker]

I take your point Chris

I have eleven Norther Patrol covers, but only four have fully  identifiable dates.

Gould 2A16 : 22.8.16 and 17.4.16
Gould 2A17 : 10.11.15 and 28.11.15

This is far too small a number to conclude that 2A17 was replaced by 2A16 some time between 28.11.15 and 22.8.16. But if  more dates are forthcoming it may begin to clarify Nick's query.  We need overlapping dates for 2A17 and 2A16 to  indicate there were two concurrent censor marks in use.

Tony

[Nick Colley]

Chris, not really: Alan's pointer to the Dreadnought Project entry brings to light something I should have realised: many of the vessels in the 10th CS have known censor marks. At least some - if not most? - are not common. The two marks in question, 2A16 and 2A17 might be considered to be relatively plentiful. As evidence in support of that, I point to Tony's 11 examples  :). I can add my two examples to that number if I can ever find them.

To get to the point, though, the above observations lead me to ponder if 2A16 and 17 are marks used ashore at the base(s) of 10th CS. I'm currently scouring Corbett to find references to its operations and bases. It's work in progress, but so far I've found reference to Liverpool, Glasgow, Swarbacks Minn, and, of course, Scapa. I've got as far as mid-1916. Sadly, I've found nothing to indicate how the importance or function of these locations changed with time.

Anyway, it's work in progress. To all who have offered thoughts and comments and observations, many thanks. If you have any more, don't keep them to yourselves!

chrs
N

[Frank Schofield]

Nick

I refer members to Armed Mefrchant Cruisers, 1878 - 1945 by R OSborne, H Spong & T Grover, published by the World Ship Society in 2007

Very detailed on the ships in the 10th Cruiser Sqn, sadly no censor marks listed.

Frank

[Nick Colley]

Thanks, Frank, I'll pass that along. I'm searching for my own examples of these marks, and so far, I've found 2A17, postmarked London m/c, dated 2/9/15, which would be in line with Tony's observations.

Also, Tony's question about his Swedish intercepted mail reminded me I have a couple of examples which seem likely to qualify for that adjective. I'll allow myself to be distracted, hopefully only temporarily, and start another topic.

chrs
N

[Michael Dobbs]

In response to the meeting report in the Spring Newsletter I have received the following information from member Lynton Wright:

[color=maroon]I have four copies of the Northern Patrol Censored marks
The larger mark Goulds 2A16 are both cancelled with M12 of Inverness and are both 32mm in diameter one is dated  6.10 16

The smaller mark Gould's 2A17  is on one item  also with the M12 cancel of Inverness, and the other is cancelled with the usual London m/c dated 2 5 15 both addressed to the same address in Padstow and the censored marks are the same diameter 24mm

In my humble opinion they are two different marks

I hope this info helps in your Discussion Forum[/color]

Mike

[Alan Baker]

Just rejoining this query.

Signalman Kenneth Nottle was on the crew of HMS Zaria in 1917. The ship had two different censors according to Gould's listing, but neither is seen on the card