How to understand this WW2 cover and letter.

[John Cranmer]

I got this cover and contents because of its Canadian connections and a couple of things about it that interested me. That is was from a serviceman with the No. 5 M.L.& B. unit (mobile bath and laundry unit) CenT Med Forces - and the senders service number U1582 - as far as I know the prefix U shows that he enlisted in the UK.

But now I am confused.  There is the British style FPO .(3rd August 1944) which appears to be FPO 524 cancelling am American airmail stamp. The first digit in the FPO number is not that clear but the photoshoped scan helps.  The only reference I have - Bailey and Toop - list this as used by the 5th Canadian Armored Brigade in the Ortona area from 23-12-43 to 27-3-44 but nothing after that.  The letter itself is date 1st August 1944

Any suggestions as to why the US stamp would be used with a British style FPO most interesting - or any other thoughts.

John Cranmer

[Chris Weddell]

John,

        The only thing i can help with is the use of the US stamp. I see the cover was sent air mail. The official rate of US airmail for members of the US military was six cents. Being Canadian could they somehow be attached to US forces and used their air mail service while still using Commonwealth FPO's and censor marks????

                                            Chris 

[John Cranmer]

I did wonder about something like that but somehow it does not seem right.  Perhaps someone in the Saturday meeting will know.

John

[John Cranmer]

Talking to a couple of friends the only thoughts have been that the writer somehow had an American stamp - was he at some time working with a US unit ? - and he put that on the cover but then handed it into the Canadian postal system and that it was accepted and sent on its way.

John

[Michael Dobbs]

[b]"The BNAPS Catalogue of Canadian Military Mail Markings - Volume 2: The World War 2 Era 1936-1945"[/b] Compiled and Edited by C.D. Sayles (BNAPS Ltd, April 2011) lists FPO 524 as follows:

TCA.5, CA.5 from April 1944

DCA.5: 5th Canadian Armoured Division - Ration Point - UK, Italy, NW Europe
CA.5: 5th Canadian Armoured Brigade - UK, Italy, NW Europe
Nov 1941 - Jan 1946

[b]"The Canadian Military Posts Volume 2 - Between the Wars and World War Two - 1920 to 1946"[/b] by W.J. Bailey and E.R. Toop, Edited by Edward B. Proud (1985) lists FPO 524 as follows:

FPO 524 issued 3/11/41 to FPO DCA5 - recorded used 2/8/43 - ??
FPO 524 5 Cdn Armd Bde Ortona area recorded used 23/12/43 to 27/3/44
FPO 524 from 5 Armd Bde - recorded used 21/4/44 to 1/10/45 (returned 9/1/46)

[b]"Handbook and Checklist of Canadian Military Post Offices to 1986" [/b]by W J Bailey and E R Toop (Unitrade Press, 1987)
This shows FPO 524 as being with FPO CA5 (UK, Italy, NW Europe) Nov 41 - Jan 46

[u]Unit[/u]:
I can confirm that [b]5 Canadian Mobile Laundry & Bath Unit RCOC[/b] (Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps) formed part of 5th Canadian Armoured Division.

5th Canadian Armoured Division comprised:
- 5th Canadian Armoured Brigade
- 11th Canadian Infantry Brigade
- Divisional Troops

[u]Datestamps[/u]:
During October and November 1941 5th Canadian Armoured Division (which was initially designated 1st Canadian Armoured Division but the designation was changed shortly after its formation was authorised in Spring 1941) arrived in the UK with Divisional HQ and most units arriving on 22 November 1941 as part of the Fifteenth Flight.  British FPO datestamp FIELD POST OFFICE 509 was allocated to the divisional postal unit on 21 October 1941 while datestamps FIELD POST OFFICE 522 to 524 were issued to the unit on 3 November 1941.

All four datestamps numbers (FPOs 509, 522 to 524) were returned to the Home Postal Centre RE from 8 Base Army Post Office on 9 January 1946.

The second Bailey & Toop publication listed is a simplified checklist - I would go for Bailey & Toop published by Proud as a more accurate listing.  It is clear that these FPO datestamps (509, 522 to 524) were only ever used by the Canadians during WW2 - issued in October/November 1941 and return to Home Postal Centre in January 1946.

Unfortunately I have not been able to view the postal unit war diary at The National Archives - there are war diaries for the years 1942, 1943 and 1944.

I not able to help regarding postal instructions / facilities as I have still to research those areas in the latter years of the war.  However, I would tend to agree with the reasoning John's friends gave - for some reason this Canadian soldier just happened to have a US 6c stamp on him and used that.  I presume that the US and Canadian currency were more or less equal.

Mike  :)

[Neil Williams]

maybe I'm going to muddy the waters here...

It is my understanding there was a reciprocal agreement between the Canadian Postal Services and the US APO, at least in the Mediterranean and Middle East theatre. There is a reference to this in Webb : A Guide to Canadian Military Postal History 1636-1970, page 231. '....use of American Force's air mail service for getting letters back to Canada. Provided the letters carried the correct amount of US Postage, 6 cents, the US Army Postal service accepted their transfer from British and Canadian facilities for inclusion in despatches for the USA. US Postage stamps, postal stationery, and air letter forms .. were easily obtainable as Canadian and American troops often served in the same areas in (North Africa) and Italy'. I have examples from RCAF personnel in Aden, where there was also a USAAF and USN presence, using this facility.

I think this explains why a 6 cent stamp, but doesn't answer whether it was the American or the Canadian postal system that handled the letter to the UK. Maybe whoever showed some flexibility.

[Michael Dobbs]

Neil

Rather than muddy the waters, I think that you may well have clarified the answer - thank you.

As regards who may have handled the letter to the UK, that may well have to wait until we can get back to The National Archives and look through various war diaries (Divisional postal unit and higher postal authorities) to see if they mention mail handling and routes (I have found the Canadian postal unit war diaries contain a great deal more detailed information than many British postal unit war diaries).

We shall have to wait and see.

[John Cranmer]

Neil

Thank you for that comment.  I do not have that book and this is the first I have heard of that system.  It does sound very plausible.  Especially as this was sent by a member of a Mobile Bath and Laundry Unit that may very well have been used by both nation's forces if they were in the same area at that time.  Perhaps it was the only envelope that he could get his hands on and with the reciprocal arrangement the Canadians Postal system was harpy to handle it.

I do wonder if the letter did go to the US and was  then sent on to Canada would you not expect some sort of transit marking on the cover ?.

John

[John Cranmer]

That will teach me not to get too carried away by a theory. 

The cover was of course sent to England not to Canada so probably no transit marks. 

John

[Neil Williams]

I don't have the Webb book, unfortunately, but at least some chapters can be found on the internet and downloaded. I thought all of it was available, maybe it was, but a recent search couldn't find it in its entirety! 

For the record, the few items I have seen (they are scarce) of mail going to North America via the US APO from RCAF personnel in Aden have only the RAF Censor and the APO 663 cancel as marks. No transit marks or US censorship. Likewise forces mail to Canada via 'British mails' from Aden is similarly unmarked, unless it collected an Egyptian censor. In just looking these covers up, I note I've one from Aden in 1942 to Canada marked 'via Pan American Airmail' (ie via trans-central Africa and trans-Atlantic) at a rate of 44as - I can see why a 6cts deal with the USAPO was very attractive.  It's on my list to write this Aden/Canada/USAPO stuff up for the Journal!