WW1 Navy cover.

[Chris Weddell]

Hi All,
        Could anyone tell me anthing abut the censor mark and which ship it may come from.Also as i am very new to WW1 Navy covers could any advice me of good books on the subject and where i can get them.
                                                        Thanks
                                                          Chris

[Paul McTaggart]

The Censor mark looks like a Gould 4D30 (should measure 38 1/2 mm width  x 13 mm height)  making a match to HMS Lion.

The mute cross handstamp cancel I am having a harder time matching in the Gould listings. But if Lion is correct they it could be a variation of the DB 31, 32 type.

The reference you are after (that I have provided this info from)  is British Naval Post & Censor Marks of the First World War by Dr. M. H Gould. To obtain contact Peter Hugh.

Regards

Paul

[Frank Schofield]

Gents
Paul is correct it is HMS Lion, the very faint censor in green is Gould's 4D30
The mute cross is early WW1, my 6 years old grandson (now 23) told me these are very similar to the potato prints they made at school, I am yet to prove this theory wrong
I have no record of this for HMS Lion, but will add it to the 31 others (29 identified ships) that I have, not listed by Gould. HMS Russell has a similar mark
The writer is Midshipman Patrick F Cooper, appointed to HMS Lion on 15th May 1913, in Sept 1915 he was reappointed to HMS Liverpool as T/Sub/Lt
Hope of some use
Frank Schofield

[Michael Dobbs]

Just to correct Paul slightly:- to obtain a copy please contact Peter [u]High[/u] (our President and London Meetings Organiser who also runs "Postal History 2000" dealing in postal history and military history books). 
You can contact him at: publications@forcespostalhistorysociety.org.uk

Regards, Mike

[Paul McTaggart]

Mike,

Thanks for the correction PBTCAK. Problem Between The Chair And Keyboard ! Peter High is exactly what was intended but not typed correctly.

Regards

Paul

[Michael Dobbs]

Paul

I know the problem all too well !!  There are too many times when I look up at the screen to see PBTCAK has struck with a vengeance !  I'm glad you have been able to identify a name for the symptom - but alas a solution is none too readily available (except perhaps a slower pace between finger and keyboard) !

Have a good day, Mike

[Chris Weddell]

Hi Eveyone.
                Thankyou all for your help.
                              Cheers Chris  :D

[Colin Tabeart]

The censor marking is clearly Lion. The dumb cross is something else. I have serious doubts that any of these can be allocated to specific ships as is sometimes suggested. As far as I know ships were not allowed to cancel adhesives, so they should have been applied ashore. In which case a specific  dumb cross could have been associated with a particular port, but could have been applied to mail landed from any ship at that port. The makeshift nature of them also suggests a very short life. I don't personally think anything can be read into any of them, except in very rare instances.
If purchasing Gould do ask for the cumulative supplement to go with it if Peter has any copies left.
Good hunting, Colin

[Alan Baker]

I would support the idea that these marks are port-specific rather than ship-specific. I have a postcard bearing a censor mark and written address of HMS Tiger, but with a dumb cross cancel very similar to Gould DB52, which he notes as seen on mail from HMS New Zealand in Feb15. My card is also dated Feb 15 and it is possible to locate the ship at this time as being in Rosyth, along with the New Zealand. This information is confirmed from Jellicoe's book "The Grand Fleet, 1914-16" which gives good indications of the movement of ships during this period

Unless mail from one ship was passed to another for cancellation, this suggests that the mark was applied in the mail office ashore.

I will endeavour to post a scan of the card if anyone is interested

[akennedy]

As Colin says, the dumb postmarks were applied ashore, in post offices in naval ports, to avoid use of named and dated postmarks which would be very bad security.
Linking a ship to the postmark is only a minor clue to the location of the postmark - i.e. a port used by the ship concerned, but not very helpful in the absence of dates!

Alistair

[Chris Weddell]

Hi All,
        I forget to mention that on the verso of the cover is a postmark which is dated for the 17 of may 1915.Does anybody know where HMS lion was just before that date.
                                  Thanks
                                  Chris

[Colin Tabeart]

Don't know, but expect she was at Rosyth. Between 17 and 19 May the whole Grand Fleet carried out a sweep of the central N Sea, the battle cruisers some 30 to 50 miles ahead of the Battle Fleet. (Admiral Jellicoe's Memoirs page 218). So the letter could well have been landed just before Lion sailed from Rosyth to RV with the battle fleet.
best wishes, Colin

[Chris Weddell]

Hi All.
        I have been going though my covers and i just found this cover also from H.M.S. Lion. The sender is the same and the censor cachet is the same as the original query. But the mute cross handstamp is not. Again i cannot find the mute cross in Goulds. Can anyone help.

The mute cross on the cover is the bottom one in the scan. The top cover is the cover from the original query.


                                                Chris  ;D

[Frank Schofield]

Chris
These mute crosses appear to have been used  before the eight barred mute cancels came into general use
I have a least 5 different from HMS Lion on record, these are all positively identified from the ships censor marks, envelopes etc.
I photocopy these and past them in my copy of Gould, there is one very similar to yours.
why so many different?, I am sure my then six year grandson came up with the answer many years ago, "They look like the potato prints we make at school granddad" and some eighteen years later I have never come across any other answer to prove this wrong. If the thing wore out or got damaged they got a new spud and cut a new one, sound daft but if somebody out there has better knowledge on the subject feel free to join in

Frank Schofield

[Chris Weddell]

Frank,
          Thank you that makes a lot of sense to me about potato prints being used. As that would make sense of the many variations of the mute cancels of the "Lion".

                                Chris  ::)