WW1 RNVR enquiry and FPO 147

[Michael Dobbs]

I received the following enquiry via our website:

[color=maroon]Ashley Marsh at the National Postal Museum and Archive has suggested I contact you, as he has been unable to help on my enquiry. I have to hand a Field Service Post Card sent by my grandfather through Field Post Office 147 in March 1917. Ashley tells me Proud records the operation of this FPO from July 1917, but the archive has no record of its earlier use. Can you advise where FPO 147 was located in March 1917, and would you like a scan of the card for your files?[/color]

I responded: Yes, please send me a scan.  I can then pass it on to one of our experts and co-author of the book "The Postal History of the British Army in World War I 1903-1929", by Alistair Kennedy and George Crabb, and published by the Society back in 1977.  His records have expanded considerably since then.

According to "Kennedy & Crabb" FIELD POST OFFICE 147 was allocated to 164 Brigade during the period February to June 1917 (FPO datestamps used by the BEF were routinely swopped around about every six months - FPO 147 was originally allocated to 147 Brigade, but this was soon seen to be a security risk, hence the reason for swopping around datestamps between formations).

164 Brigade formed part of 55th (West Lancashire) Division.  I don't have any specific location information but our WW1 expert might.

The person making the enquiry then responded:

[color=maroon]The news that FPO 147 was allocated to the 164th Brigade is a bit at odds with what we know of my grandfather's WWI service. He had volunteered for, and served in, the RNVR during the whole of the war. Up to now, we understood he had spent the entire time at the Navy's Crystal Palace training centre in South East London, in an administrative capacity. So it comes as something of a surprise, when we recently chanced upon the post card, to find that he went out of England - and now that he possibly was associated with a British army infantry regiment.

I know that there an infantry division from the RND served on the Western Front during this period of the War, and that the RND had a base at the Crystal Palace. I just wonder if my grandfather was in some way involved with the RND, and that they were in the same area/used the same FPO as the 164th Brigade in March 1917?

Any further light you can throw on this mystery would be appreciated.[/color]

In addition to requesting more information on FPO 147 in March 1917, I think the person making the enquiry needs to be informed about how to obtain service information on their grandfather - I don't do this type of research but I know that several of you do, how should they go about it please ?

Many thanks, Mike

[Frank Schofield]

Mike

Surname of the grandfather might help, there were a lot of Jim's in WW1

Frank Schofield

[Michael Dobbs]

Frank

I have now been provided with the following information:

[color=maroon]Here is the requested information that I have on my grandfather's WWI service record:

- name: James Newbould
- born: May 1893, West Derby, Liverpool
- enlisted: 8 June 1916 in the Mersey Division of the RNVR
- service number: Z/1931
- rank on enlistment: Ordinary Seaman
- promotions: Able Bodied Seaman 21.11.1916; Acting Leading Seaman 1.8.1917
- service career: August 1916: posted to the naval training depot at the Crystal Palace, South London, and understood (family lore) to stayed there and to have had an administrative/secretarial role through the whole of his time in the RNVR
- discharged: 15 January 1919 with PCCI 42825 [/color]

My quandry is, if he stayed at Crystal Palace throughout his war service, how did he get a Field Service Postcard postmarked FPO 147 from the BEF ?

Regards, Mike

[Graham Mark]

Can the enquirer be sure that the sender of the card, Jim .... writing to Miss Elliott, was her grandfather?  If Miss Elliott became the enquirer's grandmother that would prove him, or if there are other letters from HMS Crystal Palace the handwriting can be compared.

The 164 Brigade, in 55 (West Lancs) Div, was 'somewhere in France' but not involved in any battles in March 1917, per Becke's "Order of Battle" books.
It had been in XV Corps, 4th Army during the Somme in 1916, then in XIX Corps 5th Army in July 1917 for Pilkem Ridge (Ypres).

A possible reason for a Seaman to be on land near the Army - he could have been with, or visiting, an RNAS unit - either flyers or balloons.

[Frank Schofield]

Gents

164 Bde on 24th Mar 1917, was in reserve in the Ypres Area. the following day (Sunday) Units attended church parade, afternoon devoted to football

Still checking 63rd RND

Frank Schofield

[Chris Grimshaw]

Friends

There are 5 Medal cards on the Kew site listed for a James Newbould, 2 Privates, 1 Gunner, 1 Driver & 1 Captain.

However nothing which suggests an RNVR man with this service number Z/1931,

Ancestry may show more as I can open the medal cards, it's possible he transferred to the Army but from the information supplied unlikely.

No Medal Card, No Service oversea's in 99.9999999 of cases.

Cheers

Chris

[Chris Grimshaw]

a little more

There may be something in this record, free if visiting Kew, download at £3.30

Reference: ADM 337/55/31 
Description: Name  Newbould, James
Service Number:  Z/1931
RNVR Division:  Mersey
Date of Birth:  28 May 1891

Date:  1915-1916 
Held by:  The National Archives, Kew 
Former reference in its original department  Vol No 7 

Chris

[Frank Schofield]

A little bit more

The RND was at Hazebrouck on 24th March 1917, they were under orders (less the Divisional Artillery) to march and join XIII Corps in the Busnes area. the Artillery later were loaned to the Canadian Corps

Hazebrouck is approx. 15 miles from Ypres, a long way to go to post a Field Service card

Frank Schofield

[Chris Weddell]

Hi All,

        I have some more info from has R.N.V.R. service record i think. James Newbould born 28th may 1891. Occupation greengrocer crossed out them market gardener added, Date and period of engagements 8 June 1916  Hosti?. Demobbed on 15th January 1919. No mention of ever serving aboard.

                                               Chris

[Chris Weddell]

Hi Again.
Also it seems he was at Victory VI traning from 1916-1919. He ended up a acting l.s? (Leading seaman i think)

                                                Chris.

                                                       


           

[Michael Dobbs]

Chris Weddell and myself had the same thought and obtained the records from ADM 337/55/31 held at The National Archives, Kew.  It does not show anything more than that posted by the person making the enquiry, which suggests he also has obtained a copy of the same record.  The only difference is that it is PIC No 42825, not PCCI 42825, but I don't know what that means !

I will be asking the person making the enquiry how they cam be sure that the 'Jim' who wrote the Field Service Postcard is their grandfather as we cannot find anything to suggest that Leading Seaman James Newbould served anywhere else other than at Crystal Palace !

Thanks to you all for your help on this - greatly appreciated.  However, if anyone has any further information / thoughts please post them here !

Thanks, Mike  :)

[Michael Dobbs]

Thanks to you all so far - this is turning into a bit of a puzzle.  I emailed the person making the enquiry with our efforts so far and it appears we have got no further than he.  I did ask if he was certain that the Jim was indeed his grandfather and I have since received the following reply:

[color=maroon]My thanks for your reply, and for all the digging and head-scratching you and your colleagues have undertaken on my  behalf.

On the points you raise, my reactions are as follows:

1. Yes, indeed, I have the service record (and also his enlistment application form, from 1916, which is held at Yeovilton), from which I have endeavoured to extract every ounce of information!

2. I can confirm the card was indeed sent by my grandfather, James Newbould. The recipient was his fiancee, who later in 1917 became his wife, and was my grandmother. Her name and the address at this date are confirmed by other sources.

3. The sender of the card therefore is the same man that is the subject of ADM 337/55/31.

4. This card is the only correspondence we have from him, during WWI, that originates from outside the UK.

Like yourselves, I too was greatly puzzled when I came across the post-card, as family lore always had it that he saw out the war in the confines of the Crystal Palace - and, as  you have identified, there is nothing in his service record to suggest he was indeed anywhere else.

Having said that, there is one intriguing entry in the service record. Under the 'Remarks' section, there is a note that, I think, reads "local rating RND". It is not dated, but the subsequent entry is  - 1 August 1917 - indicating that the first one was written before this date. A few observations on this:

- James enlisted into the RNVR, and stayed with this service for the duration of his enlistment
- the Crystal Palace site, however, was inter alia, a training depot for officers destined to serve in the RND
- RND divisions served on the Western Front
- the card is franked with a March 1917 date

I just wonder whether James, who worked in an administrative function, rising to become the secretary to the Admiral responsible for RNVR training at the Crystal Palace, was informally transferred to the RND for a short period in early 1917 in some sort of administrative/communication capacity, which took him to France for a while.

This leads me to ask whether any RND divisions (or perhaps other Navy land-based divisions or service units) used FPO 147, or were in that part of the Western Front where FPO 147 was in use in March 1917. Is this something that could be considered by yourselves?[/color]

Comments please.

Thanks as always, Mike  8)