back to school

[Tony Walker]

Leafing through a box of 'military' at the York Fair a while ago I came across a cover addressed to my old school at Gresham's School in Holt, Norfolk.  But bingo! it had one of the crude home-made dumb cross cancels used extensively on naval mail in WWI.  I bought it, and it turned out to be an attractive item.  The cancel was probably applied at Rosyth.  See scan

With the help of the school archivist she reported the recipient was Julian Jefferson, a pupil at the school who went on to attend Sandhurst and became a regular officer commanding the 1st Bn Welsh Guards and 33 Guards Independent Brigade Group, 1944 Cmdg. North Caribbean Area.  That will mean something to you Army buffs.

The cover has been self-censored by IS Jefferson, Julian Jefferson's older brother

Lieut. Ingleby Stuart Jefferson  was born in Ripon in 1893.  He enlisted at York and was posted to HMS Conway (a Naval Training School set up in 1859), where he passed out first.  He was an accomplished sportsman and represented the Navy v the Army at football, he also boxed to a high standard and was a strong swimmer having been awarded the Humane Society medal for saving the life of a soldier when he was in HMS Sub C 21.

He took command of Sub C 34 in April 1917 (?).  The submarine was caught on the surface by U52 off Fair Isle in the Shetlands, and sunk on 17 July 1917.  There was only one survivor from the crew of 16, Stoker 1st Class Frank Scobie picked up by the German U boat and held as a PoW at Brandenberg.

Whilst writing up this cover I noticed I had a photograph of C 34 mounted somewhere.  I found it to go with this post  On the message side there was an 8-barred circle cancel (standard naval issue in WWI).  See scan.

By a circuitous route I was able to establish the writer was PO Robert Keith from Landport in Portsmouth, who died on the same submarine C 34, but on 21 July 1917 according to the CWGC.  This is four days after the submarine was sunk.  Altogether a fine PPC.

Would the CWGC date be an error, or possibly PO Keith died four days later on the German submarine?

It's Easter Monday, a Bank Holiday - but for most of us tomorrow will be much the same, no work, no socialising.  Be patient folks and stay healthy

Cheers
Tony

[Nick Colley]

Tony, see attached. That website has the death of your PO Keith occurring on the 17th July.

If he had died of wounds on a later date, he would have been listed on that date, with the attribution to C34.

It seems distinctly possible, then, that the CWGC is in error.

chrs
N

[Peter Harvey]

But on checking https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/7311 The Imperial War Museum says C34 was sunk on the 21st July?

Peter

[Michael Dobbs]

There appears to be a great deal of confusion around the date - 17th or 21st July 1917 ??

The website uboat.net includes both dates !
[url=https://uboat.net/wwi/men/commanders/386.html]https://uboat.net/wwi/men/commanders/386.html[/url]
In the text beside a photo of Hans Walther it states "21st July 1917 the British submarine C34 became another of his victims east of Far Isle" whereas in the listing of ships hit it is shown as 17 July 1917!

Wikipedia ([url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_C34]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_C34[/url]) shows the vessel to have been sunk on 17 July 1917

On the website Harwich & Dovercourt
[url=http://www.harwichanddovercourt.co.uk/submarines-ww1/]http://www.harwichanddovercourt.co.uk/submarines-ww1/[/url]
under C34 under a photo of the submarine it shows "Fate. Torpedoed 21/07/1917".  However, the text states "On 24th July 1917, C34 was caught on the surface off Fair Isle in Shetland by U-52 and was sunk by gunfire"

So, torpedoed on 21 July or sunk by gunfire on 24 July ???

The London War Memorial
(Online memorial for London's fallen  in the First World War)
[url=http://www.londonwarmemorial.co.uk/search_results.php?offset=420&sort=&a=Clapton&f=First%20Name&s=Last%20Name&r=Rank&u=Unit&d=Date%20Of%20Death#sthash.FCK5X1FZ.N5Hwu6lZ.dpbs]http://www.londonwarmemorial.co.uk/search_results.php?offset=420&sort=&a=Clapton&f=First%20Name&s=Last%20Name&r=Rank&u=Unit&d=Date%20Of%20Death#sthash.FCK5X1FZ.N5Hwu6lZ.dpbs[/url]
listed Able Seaman Arthur EDWARDS on C34 as having died on 17 July 1917


Royal Navy Loss List complete database
[url=https://www.thisismast.org/assets/downloads/rn-loss-list-2017-10-29.pdf]https://www.thisismast.org/assets/downloads/rn-loss-list-2017-10-29.pdf[/url]
p107 shows C34 as being sunk on 21 July 1917

World War One Memorial Board Listing: List compiled from Commonwealth War Graves Commission web-site and a variety of other specialist listings related to naval history
[url=http://hmsconway.org/Mem%20List%20WWOne.pdf]http://hmsconway.org/Mem%20List%20WWOne.pdf[/url]
p9 shows Lt Ingleby Stuart Jefferson RN died on C34 Sunk by German S/M off Shetlands 21/07/17

And so the listing goes on - some stating 17th July other 21st July - however, there appears to be more listing 21st July than 17th.

Mike  :-\

[Nick Colley]

Damn, you beat me to it, Mike. Anyway, I've drafted the reply, so I'm posting it anyway:

Good spot, Pete. I had a look round the internet yesterday evening , and found seven sites with something to say about the sinking of C34. I suspect there's a lot of self-feeding occurs on the internet, with site compilers copying information  from other sites without verifying the 'facts'. Be that as it may, four of the seven sites say 17th July (I suspect the self-feeding process is going on here).  Your IWM page says the 21st. Another website says the 24th (!), and the seventh says C34 was torpedoed on the 21st, and in the same paragraph says it was sunk by gunfire on the 24th  ::)

This is just a theory, but I wonder if 17th July was the last day C34 was heard from, and the 24th was the day she was classed by the Admiralty as missing/overdue? The 21st may be the date coming from the patrol report of U52, and is therefore likely to be more reliable? If the theory holds, that is.

Chrs
N

[Tony Walker]

Thanks for the discussion folks, nothing conclusive, although I fancy 17th.

In the reports it says C 34 was on the surface when attacked by U 52.  This sounds like very poor seamanship on the part of Commander Jefferson.  Maybe his sub was disabled?

[Nick Colley]

Charging his batteries?